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Wednesday, January 31, 2007




Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 04:18:12 -0500

Reduced De Montfort University Creative Writing and New Media guest
lecture chat


This is fascinating - I'm always curious how many of
the old IRC commands are retranslated or reinterpreted in these newer
chats 14:52:20
No problem - let me knowwhen to start 29-Jan-2007
14:52:29
***MUZAK** 14:52:53

MUZAK 14:53:02
MUZAK 14:53:07
heh! 14:53:11
:

music... 14:53:22

music

14:53:52 hello 14:53:57 where are we now? 14:54:13 here we are then...
14:54:39 now we are one 14:54:45 one 14:55:11 going out and coming back in
- 14:55:28 left the session 14:55:34 joined the session 14:55:46 left the
session 14:55:51 joined the session 14:57:21 displayed the following URL:
http://www.asondheim.org/net1.txt 14:57:45 Alan 14:57:48 Some of them are
working! I've been playing around with html tags and couldn't get out of
bold! 14:58:10 But Im not in bold now -are you? There's no bold at this
end? 14:58:26 This is wonderfully strange... 14:58:42 - you're bold?
14:58:48 Hi everyone! 14:58:52 Must be the diluted blood... 14:59:16 Well,
I've got the URL up - yes, it's difficult, you have to use the slider.
15:00:12 I'll try and be spare. 15:00:17 Wow! Stumbling over Brooklyn -
15:00:35 Ok I'm ready whenever anyone else is - 29-Jan-2007 15:01:20 Can
you scroll the text I've put up? 29-Jan-2007 15:01:34 It's just the first
file in the Internet Text, which I've been writing for fourteen years;
I'll switch to an 'examples' text in a bit 15:02:01 Ok, thanks 15:02:05
Why don't you start with questions and we'll see where it goes - 15:02:26
Hi - 15:02:41 Yes of course 15:02:53 It's odd because those seem like
different operations - I'd say something close to obsessive compulsive
behavior combined with a real wonder about the world 15:03:24 I can't not
work 15:03:43 Too much neurosis on this end - which then becomes part of
the content - 15:04:18 Well, what gets rid of the "I self Me" - which is
narcissism - is the world itself - 15:04:36 the protocols etc. - 15:04:43
I'm not sure - I do all my writing online - possibly 5 hours a day -
15:05:00 god no 15:05:05 the protocols - coding - 15:05:24 I'm not
struggling with that. 15:05:31 It's a hideous anti-semitic tract -
29-Jan-2007 15:05:49 The protocols reference code and the breakdown of
code 15:06:04 it's amazing I could stop there - 15:06:20 and it's between
code and its breakdown that I'm interested in - that 'liminal' space
15:06:40 which is partly interpretable in a classical sense (hermeneutics)
and partly not 15:06:58 She disappeared a while ago; I didn't want to
write into the character any more. I felt I had done all I could - and
with Julu, Jennifer, Travis, Alan, etc. 15:07:28 The space-between code -
what underlies writing here and the surface itself. 15:07:59 I started
calling this 'codework' which has taken on a life of its own. 15:08:17 So
the subtext so to speak ruptures the text which collapses the subtext etc.
15:08:34 As if the bones of the tomb of writing were made visible.
15:08:52 - as if the bones had some sort of presence in the world without
the flesh of writing (which in a way is a kind of etiquette) 15:09:14 So
that the writing in a way is 'lurid' - cutting through in other ways.
15:09:37 As in the 'Anita Berber' pieces that I've put up at the blog -
15:09:57 Mistakes in print, and in the traditional Tanach, five books, all
those misplaced letters, etc. 15:10:18 displayed the following URL:
http://nikuko.blogspot.com 15:10:32 There's the "skeleton" of a piece of
writing - which started with a short piece paralleling Berber's and
Droste's own writing,and then expanded it using the 'dict' command -
29-Jan-2007 15:11:20 which gives you a huge list of synonyms. The first
entry is the skeleton - the entry immediately following is the piece
itself. 15:11:46 Which is a kind of overflowing of synonyms, burying the
original text - 15:12:04 and there's a parallel with Berber's life here,
at least for me, and also a sense of over-accumulation, "surplus" 15:12:33
- a surplus which goes nowhere. 15:12:41 If you click on the link you
might get the .mp3 file which is made from tabla playing heavily filtered
- a kind of stuttering/heartbeat that again parallels the text 29-Jan-2007
15:13:43 How so? 15:13:46 This isn't my 'best' tabla work, but I thought
it interesting to put up - 15:14:28 I wonder what happened; I'm always
afraid of clicking on links here - at one point everything closed down.
29-Jan-2007 15:15:01 No problem 15:15:04 The first bit - the short bit -
is a poem... 15:15:30 There are better tabla pieces here! I think
something called metrical.mp3 is one of them at the same site -
29-Jan-2007 15:15:53 Think of the rest as both an expansion and a
suffocation of meaning - meaning flying off 15:16:11 in so many directions
that nothing coheres... 15:16:20 It a strange interface with a mysterious
life of its own. When I was using html tagsa bit ago, everything was going
a bit awry - 15:16:57 two bits in that sentence will get you a quarter
(bad pun) 15:17:13 yes, but you might want to ask away here? When I enter
a URL then the box closes - 15:18:06 displayed the following URL:
http://www.asondheim.org/examples.txt 15:18:20 You ask about code poetry?
15:18:38 There are so many terms - I mentioned 'codework' because it seems
the most genearl; for me, the rest - e-poetry for example, electronic
poetry, new media poetry, etc. - all create genres/canons 15:19:14 which
just about close everything down in a classical form/at - in other words,
the usual politics and decisions make themselves felt. 15:19:39 If you
think of say Lautreamont - what he was doing hadn't been done before
(think ofthe space - again liminal) between Poesis and Maldoror and how
that operates) - and that is fantastic! 15:20:16 But if had to attent a
conference on his own work, that would have been something else...
15:20:33 What I've put up here - and you do have to shuttle back and forth
- is an example of a 'standard paragraph' - the "Normal" - and then
various manipulations ranging from simple to complex... 15:21:16 There's
also a few code snippets (most of which I've asked other people to write,
or found elsewhere etc.) 29-Jan-2007 15:21:36 I tend to write in Unix or
Linux - I've been doing that for a dozen years now - 15:21:54 which allows
me to use all sorts of sophisticated text manipulation tools and script
languages 15:22:13 Just briefly - the first is Normal, then 'Back" takes
each line and reverses the words, not the letters... 29-Jan-2007 15:22:43
Rev reverses everything 15:22:55 Tac reverses the line order 15:23:08 tr
A-Z a-z just gets rid of the capitals 29-Jan-2007 15:23:20 transposition
does group substitutions 29-Jan-2007 15:23:33 substitution is simpler but
similar 29-Jan-2007 15:23:43 Pig-Latin is a program that comes w/ linux
and turns everything into pig-latin! 15:24:03 Punched Cards is another
linux program that turns phrases into imitation punch-cards which were
used in the 50s and 60s 15:24:32 Eliminate which was written by Florian
Cramer for me just eliminaes any duplicate works in a piece 15:24:55 so
that "the dog and the cat" becomes "the dog and cat" for example. 15:25:12
Elimx is one I wrote from Florian's that makes a mess of "eliminate" and
creates a kind of poetry out of it which reminds me of John Giorno or
William Carlos Wiliams 15:25:53 Cramer made a program that eliminates
duplicate words. 15:26:09 The program is above. It counts different words
for example as "cat" and "cat," - the comma makes it another word.
15:26:40 The "mathesis" program I love - Jim Reith wrote it for me - and
it creates a "filter" for a text - 15:27:08 like a photoshop filter.
15:27:14 You can enter a mathematical function (the very first line) and
it pulls out words from an "array" that match points of the function. The
details don't matter here; the results, though, are something that would
be very difficult to get otherwise 29-Jan-2007 15:28:00 GoogleScrape - is
just using the Google program (API and WSDL - forget what the
abbreviations stand for) to create files which can be "scraped" - turned
into texts. I think this is what the flarf group does - 15:29:15 It's just
a more sophisticated way of using google results as a basis for literature
- 15:29:33 Then there's the "Simple perl program results" - which is based
on a program I wrote years ago that's interactive and allows me to 'write
into' it - it then rearranges things in somewhat technical ways - 15:30:23
Yes of course, that would be a lot better than this blithering on my part!
15:30:33 Yes to both, that was also a while ago. Shinto fascinated me and
still does to some extent - a kind of animism and heavy mythology that
exists coherently with high technology. And the language (I can't read it
in the original) is so arcane - 29-Jan-2007 15:32:13 Not so much; I've
been very moved by Red Pine's translations of Chinese poets, mostly of
Zen/Taoist outlook like Cold Mountain (Han Shan) - the spaces that these
poems create - and the kind of language used by, say, Dogen in Japanese
Zen 29-Jan-2007 15:33:02 because I can't get myself "around it" - which is
wonderful. 15:33:15 On the other hand, I could never 'submit' to Zen or to
that sort of discipline - I'd be interested in wild Zen, wild Buddhism,
without training, kind of yamabushi stuff without the community 15:34:02
Well, that's complex. I don't have a traditional relationship to Shinto or
to Japanese culture - 15:34:29 and am alienated by, say, Mishima, by
whale-hunting, by what happened at Nanking, etc., all of which relates (I
think) to State Shinto. but that's really another topic... If this is the
Mu you are speaking of then yes, I do (for some reason I started thnking
of 'the continent of Mu" 15:35:37 The one book that stays with me, now, is
the Flower Sutra, possibly the full translation of the Tibetan Book of the
Dead as well. 15:36:18 These are openings for me, and the sutra is
incredible. 15:36:29 By the way (while waiting) the Yipes! text is made
from some of the rules above. 15:37:13 And the "Using Chat" was made by
recording one of thesesessions by myself. 15:37:30 ok 15:37:32 Ok - but
they're not appearing here - 29-Jan-2007 15:38:10 One second 15:38:24 Ah I
see - for me in relation to D Turner's second question - 15:38:55 about
Youtube and so forth - the work skitters among all of these. I do laptop
performance and actually musical performance in rl (the latter I'm dubious
about) and video/audio/dance/image are all part of this; 15:39:31 I also
work with dancers in Geneva, Switzerland, and this has gone back and forth
with my other work. 15:39:51 Yes, the meaning shifts in each context, but
the concerns are pretty consistent. 15:40:05 Edting in relation to suprlus
- that depends on what I'm working on; with vidoe I tend to pare things
down greatly, especially for the web - 15:40:36 but I prefer also to work
on an idea, get through with it, and move on, rather than finesse it; the
latter in a way is too easy, I know where things are going, so does the
audience - 15:41:06 Code and text interact for me; sometimes the structure
is evident, sometimes it isn't. 15:41:46 When I'm working with software (I
work at the Virtual Environments Lab at West Virginia University at
times), I try to take the software 15:42:16 to some sort of limit - seeing
what happens at the edge. I did a piece in Second Life where the
character/s try to escape and keep coming up against artificial barriers
of the edge of the mapping 15:42:49 I work in both darknet and a/v - the
presentation in some ways 'fills out the form' - whatever is available...
29-Jan-2007 15:43:20 Text-based work allows me to think the
hardest/clearest in a way - it's unforgiving 15:43:55 I write a great deal
of theory, and it's so easy to slide into nonsense... 15:44:10 Sometimes
it matters, most of the time it doesn't - if the code is present, one can
usually get some idea of the structure in it 15:44:33 whether or not one
understands it fully. There are times I don't understand it fully.
15:44:49 I did some work in visual basic (you can download the exe.tar and
open it on a PC - they'reexecutables) - and I can't tell you where the
effects are from. 15:45:22 Exactly like lace, and just as ephemeral...
15:45:33 It makes it seem as if the world is both obdurate, inert, and
interpretable, transparent. 15:46:09 I think of Jacques Lacan in this
regard - reading his text is a kind of psychoanalytical working-through
itself 29-Jan-2007 15:46:34 But of course I may be fooling myself.
29-Jan-2007 15:46:47 There are also political concerns here - trying to
scrape away at etiquette - I relate this to the usual obfuscation in our
government's policies. 15:47:27 Which effects in the films? And you should
sometime see the originals - the compression makes a mess out of them -
15:47:47 There are avatars that are constructed from motion capture
equipment 15:48:08 and images from laser scanning equipment (big lasers)
15:48:23 I'm not sure which this is! I think that's the laser. 15:48:34
The Wolf piece - that's using motion capture and feeding it into Poser,
which models figures - then distorting the files so the figures literally
break down. 15:49:02 The bones of the wolf come through. 29-Jan-2007
15:49:18 Poser is a 3d mannequin modeling program. 29-Jan-2007 15:49:28
Yes, Bellmer fascinates me, but thenI worry - in my own work as well -
about the gender implicatons of al of this - 15:49:53 It's separate, it's
faster than Max I think - the mannequins are already formed to be
manipulated. 15:50:18 A lot of teen-age boys make 'ideal' girlfriends with
the stuff. 15:50:33 I think my work walks an edge of being lurid and
almost violent almost overtly sexual, but not quite (this is the video
work, not the writing or sound pieces) 15:51:28 I do think at least in the
US these images are the kind of imaginary one lives within 15:51:50 There
was a book years ago which talked about Jewish (and one can apply this to
any minority that feels beleagured) 15:52:25 culture as breaking down the
'etiquette' of middle or upper class Anglo-American culture - 15:52:48 for
example Freud scraping at the psyche, Marx at classical economics,
Witgenstein at language itself, etc. 29-Jan-2007 15:53:20 Thank you!
15:53:28 And these people were - again perhaps like codework - 15:53:39
partially-assimilated Jews, but not 'really' assimilated - so they existed
- again - in the liminal space which they recreated for themselves.
15:54:06 Einstein as well. 15:54:10 This is obviously a gross
over-simplification but it started me thinking... 15:54:27 You have the
same thing, say, in the blues, with people like Patton 'between' African
and 'white' rhythmic/tonal structures. 15:55:07 Ok - 15:55:12 Whew. I'm
not sure 9something else opened up here, sorry).. 15:55:55 When I'm
surprised by the result, it's a success, no matter how awkward. 15:56:10
when I know 'what I'm doing' - it may well be a failure. 15:56:21 I coined
the term 'defuge' to reference those moments which are akin to disgust
15:56:43 for example when you try to read a novel several times 15:56:56
and the writing itself becomes distasteful, 'decathected,' unworkable.
15:57:14 The same thing happens with pornography, but that's another
issue. 15:57:28 - if pornography were 'ideal' - one image would do it all
- but that's not the case. instead, the industry is fueled by continued
transmission. The same thing of course in the entertainment industry, etc.
15:58:04 In sports it's another related issue - one wants one's team to
win, but if it's a massacre all the time, the 'sport' disappears. 15:58:34
So there's a kind of disinvestment at work here, and that also occurs in
my writing I think when I'm too sure of myself, 'filling out that form'
again. 15:59:04 Such as what? 15:59:28 Yes, lots of time. 15:59:52 times
16:00:00 I think it depends. I haven't been thrown out of anything at all.
But there's controversy definitely - the worst was probably on nettime-l
which went on for an entire month. I left the list but came back later.
16:01:00 I also cross-post a lot which bothers people. 16:01:07 The sexual
content of some of the work bothers people. 16:01:19 And at my end I have
little patience for what I think of as the right-wing which gets me into
trouble; I just start blustering. 16:01:41 I don't know, some tame, some
not tame - it depends on how it's defined... I don't mean to offend
anyone, but most people don't I think. 16:02:19 AI? It's only a matter of
time... 16:02:53 "don't I think" - I'm not sure where this typo was
going... 16:03:19 No problem - 16:03:24 I'll be on the board, except for
Tuesday/Wednesday, when I'll be on but not that much (traveling). 16:03:55
With my work? Just to be able to keep doing it. And with technical things
like music (trying to learn to play the erhu now) - just doing a better
job 16:04:17 I'm terrible at programming, okay with borrowing or asking
for help. 16:04:35 I want to explore more 'body-avatar' issues in Second
Life, but I'm not sure i'll get to that... 16:04:55 I feel exactly the
same way- 16:05:23 for me, at least the aesthetics of coding... 16:05:50
Well, she may return, but there are other things - working with live
dancers (who are fairly extreme and we shot in the Alps and so forth) has
been wonderful 16:06:32 The 'parables' (they're in the book .echo)
29-Jan-2007 16:06:57 I don't thin I need an editor but I might have
tobother people less! 16:07:11 The dancers are like live avatars yes -
29-Jan-2007 16:07:18 In fact some of the work they do is imitating avatars
exactly as much as possible - 16:07:32 When you getto something like the
Wolf, it'sdifficult. 16:07:43 How to who feel about? 16:07:53 - 16:08:32
We tend to inspire each other. I can't do much physical (except music) and
the dancers are incredibly athletic. 16:08:58 I agree re: Butoh, I
haven't, but would like to work with Butoh dancers of course 16:09:17 The
Cunningham technique is very complex, so I can explore pretty much what I
want... 16:09:51 Or I'm the material for the dancers; it's really back and
forth. 16:10:09 At times I'm not sure who is doing what with whom or
whether it's ultimately real or virtual 16:10:25 I'll be on Joanna. -
16:10:34 I can stay for a few more minutes if there are any questions -
16:10:53 Oh someone asked why the webpage is a directory? 16:11:03 That's
the simplest way I can present the materials; I'm not good at design; when
I send out texts, they usually include URLs. 16:11:27 The Trace materials
are different - they were done with Simon Mills and are fully
interfaced... 16:11:51 Good night! - 16:11:56 Take care - 16:12:05 There
are six left; before I leave, are there any other questions? I'll check
the discussion board later 29-Jan-2007 16:12:26 down to two! 16:12:34
board with more 16:12:41 Yes 16:12:56 No problem; I'm about to sign out
unless there's a question - we're really down to you and Christine who
might have left... 16:13:27 I'll be on the discussion board later this
afternoon. 16:13:59 , please send the recording if you can! 16:14:08 Well,
if there's anything else... 16:14:17 Oh, good 16:14:32 Thanks - 16:14:40
Thank you as well - I'm constantly worrying about the quality of these
answers... 16:14:56 - bye - 16:14:59 left the session 16:15:08 joined the
session 16:15:17 left the session 16:15:19

2 comments:

Christine said...

hi Alan

here's a remix of Collapse Options i've created for remix_runran: co_dialogllapse

happy birthday

crissXross

Kira said...

Hey ,
Sounds great that you know all about your stuff! Its intriguing when you speak to someone who knows what they speak about, as oppose to reciting it from someone else they learned from. I can see you are very experienced and with your credentials it is quite obvious that you will make it far in life, or have already made it far in life :)
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